Free State Wyoming Forum
Wyoming Research and Information => General Wyoming Living Information => Topic started by: FDNYLiberty on December 17, 2010, 03:08:34 PM
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Thanks to BOSTON for opening this new forum topic.
I was wondering if anyone can tell me about home heating costs. Obviously I will get at least one wood-burning stove in the house to supplement whatever house heating system I have. (is it hard to get good wood for it if you live somewhere other than a wooded area?)
Question; Which is cheaper out there to heat with, gas (propane) or electricity? I am sure both rates are a helluva lot cheaper than here in "Con Edison" (note the word "Con") NY.
Also what are the satelitte TV monthly rates like and how is the reception. Can you pretty much get alot of the chanels? I am a BIG TMC classic movies fan and if I can't get that then I will not move to WY. (Only Kidding ;). Thanks folks.
FDNYLiberty
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In most places that you would want to live there is firewood available. Generally around $120 per cord but varries. Firewood permits are available from the forrest service for about $5 per cord.
In Crook county Electricity is about $0.05 per KWH. It is pretty cheap. The cheapest way to heat your house is with a Heat pump. Strip heat and Propane are about the same as far as price goes. Even with a heat pump you will need something else for those really cold days or when the power fails. A propane gravity heater works good and doesent require electricity to operate.
Whatever you can get on satillite there you can get here. It is all the same.
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Thanks crappiewy. Hate to sound like a complete dope, but what the heck is a heat pump? I use (fan) forced hot air gas heater (natural gas piped in from street). I expect the extreme cold weather out there warrants a few extra emergency heating modes. You mention loss of electricity. How does that affect a heat pump? Here weher I am presently, loss of juice means that my heater can't run either.
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A heat pump is an airconditioner that pushes the warm air inside instead of outside of the house. They have what is called a COP Coefficient of performance. These range from 2-5 one that hs a COP of 4 will use 25% of the energy of a electric strip heat would. One that has a COE of 2 will use half of the power.
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... (natural gas piped in from street WYOMING).
There fixed it for ya ;)
MANUMIT
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The CHEAPEST way to heat your house is with Passive Solar. We built Loop Solar homes (and businesses/town offices) all over WY in the 80s that will hold a constant 55+ when it is sub zero with no energy expenditure whatsoever.
No Electricity needed to run fans/pumps. No Petrol needed to cut/haul firewood.
And now that insulation & fenestration is even better than it was in the late 70s/80s, it's even easier. 8)
And what is this "TV" thing of which you speak? ;)
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Thanks for the " lesson" crappiewy. I suspect "strip heat" is - as we eastern dopes call it - electric baseboard?
LOL manumit :) You're a funnny F$*& !
Old Iron Sights: YES!!! I will definitely invest in some form or other in solar energy. It is one reason that I have excluded looking in areas where houses I am interested in have HOA's. They seem pretty restrictive, and I do'nt want anyone telling me what I can or can't do. If I want to take a piss off my back porch so be it.
As far as "TV" is concerned, I was wondering if you can give me a heads up on the basic costs? Here in NY they nickel and dime you to death for everything. If you also give me some info on what internet access is likeout there (High-Speed available via satellite? Just modem phone?) I would be grateful.
Thanks everyone.
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I have excluded looking in areas where houses I am interested in have HOA's.
Not too many HOAs out here, at least not where I live. Maybe in Jackson or Cheyenne. Don't know. Where I live there are no building codes at all. If you build it and it falls down, that's your problem. No legal obligation for a seller to disclose defects in a house you buy either, so you need to have one inspected before you close the deal. If you build, you must have a state permit for the septic and if you drill a well. I'd suggest buying something with proven water... Lots of dry wells drilled out here.
Oh, and if you want to grow things, make sure you find a place with some actual soil. And fence. You are legally required to fence OUT any stray livestock or deer. They have the run of the place. :)
As far as "TV" is concerned
No idea. Have not had a TV in nearly 15 years. Lots and lots of satellite dishes all over the place, however. I'm sure you can look it up on line. Just put "satellite TV" in a search engine and pick a company with service in Wyoming.
what internet access is like out there
This varies widely, though DSL is pretty much available in most areas. I pay $30. a month each for DSL and basic telephone service. With tax and the other nonsense it comes to about $72. a month. Terrible, but I was paying $65. for combined phone and dialup. I've been told that dialup won't even be available much longer. Here in Newcastle, we also have a good wireless company that doesn't cost any more than phone DSL, but is just slightly less reliable.
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Thanks for all that good info MaMaL, especially the building codes and seller disclosure. I will definitely keeop those facts in mind. BTW, the HOA house I was looking at was in Carlile (? spelling). Nice place but very small (5) acreage. I'm looking for about 10 acres at minimum. I figure my garden will be either raised beds, cold beds /covers (?) or a greenhouse (if I am lucky). MaMaL !!! NO TV ? ??? My wife and I watch TV only for the Turner classic movies station (TCM) and the Fox News channel. Everything else I'm sure you would agree, is just utter garbage - esp. MSM news and other MSM political propaganda.
DSL and Phone for $30 that goes to $70?? Geez Loius!! Those Taxes and 'other fees" are ridiculous - even in WY. That one is a shocker. I thought it was bad here. I pay $38 a month for (long-distance) phone (Vonage) and $49 a month for cable high-speed internet. Cable TV (seperate charge) is an utter rip-off at $78 a month "basic cable channels" - forget about HBO etc. Don't need them anyhow. Thanks again MaMaL. :)
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.. MaMaL !!! NO TV ? ??? My wife and I watch TV only for the Turner classic movies station (TCM) and the Fox News channel. Everything else I'm sure you would agree, is just utter garbage - esp. MSM news and other MSM political propaganda. ...
I haven't had TV (antenna or "other" for about 15 years now. Now, especially with HuLu, Netflix etc, there is no reason at all to pay for MSM mind rot.
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MaMaL; I do the Netflix thing myself. It's pretty good, esp for old movies. I live near one of their distribution depots and it takes oly two days turnaround time once I send one DVD back till I get my next one. I have not tried HuLu yet. Will take a look at it.
BTW, do you use a water sioftener for your well water?
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OOPS, sorry! My last post was meant for Old Ironsights. ;D
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BTW, do you use a water sioftener for your well water?
I don't. But I'm on Town Water. Still high in minerals, but not too bad.
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Old IronSights, does the (hard) water tend to screw up your pipes or other plumbing fixtures???
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Old IronSights, does the (hard) water tend to screw up your pipes or other plumbing fixtures???
Makes cleaning fixtures a pain, but my place is running PEX piping, so no buildup there.
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Old IronSights: I figured that most folks out there use plastic piping. I presume that this is pretty standrad. Thanks for the info. Always a pleasure.
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Old IronSights: I figured that most folks out there use plastic piping. I presume that this is pretty standrad. Thanks for the info. Always a pleasure.
Only on new construction or new remodels. Lots of Iron & Copper (and bad PVC) still out there.
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Good to know Old IronSights. Thanks. Will have to ask about this when I finally find my new place in WY. I don't want any hidden surprizes.
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Passive Solar heat never pays for itself. The cost in installing and the design build phase is many times more than you will ever recover from the heat gained. You still need the installed heating system for those cold cloudy weeks.
However I am not against Passive solar heating just be mindfull of the real savings that you will receive.
I like PEX piping too. :D
Too bad the Shark bite fittings will put you in the poor house...
I dont think that too many of us watch TV.......
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... (natural gas piped in from street WYOMING).
There fixed it for ya ;)
MANUMIT
Oh! Forgot the best one. Coal.. :D
$40 per ton. Usually free if you work there.
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Passive Solar heat never pays for itself.
Is there not a single exception to that? The word "never" is really specific and absolute.
My house has very poor natural lighting. The living room has just a three by four foot South-facing window. I bought some 4x8 fixed windows and am thinking that two of these would greatly improve the sunlight and warming from the three or four hours we get in the Winter.
Ideally, a square meter of window will let in one kilowatt of sunlight when the sky is clear. The two windows could let in six kilowatts of sunlight for zero to four hours per day, or in electric terms, from zero to a buck and a quarter per day worth, or maybe an average of twenty bucks a month. That might be worth over a hundred bucks a year in heating. The windows cost almost two hundred each, so the payoff might be less than four years if nothing tragic happens.
Setting aside the heating value, increasing the natural light by more than five times is surely worth something. I won't bother to compare the differences between material survival and a happy life to illustrate the point.
I like PEX piping too. :D Too bad the Shark bite fittings will put you in the poor house...
Yes, I am also coming around to PEX. It has the temperature ratings of CPVC, and can handle some number of freezing events without breaking. It can bend, and not need all those right angle fittings that PVC and CPVC need. The tradeoff is that PEX needs expensive compression rings and a hundred-buck crimper tool where CPVC (or simple PVC) just needs a hacksaw and a can of "cement" that you will throw away soon afterwards. I have plenty of experience with PVC and CPVC. And I think PEX parts are really expensive, but I think that I am starting to come around to using PEX for some things.
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one kilowatt is for the light striking the earth. You need to take into account the emissivity of the glass and the low angle of the sun in winter. In reality you will recieve about 250w per sqmt in crook county using non low e glass dual pane windows, On the other hand you will lose about 2kw of heat in a 24 hour period from conduction thru each window. So by adding the windows you will add about 1.5kw of heat per day as long as the sun is shining. If you average it you will probably have no gain. If you had more hours of sun you might have more gain but then you will need to add thermal mass to store it. That is where the expense comes in. Not the windows.
I like windows and light too. My place has NO south facing windows.. :( Im going to add an attached greenhouse next spring.
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Passive Solar heat never pays for itself. The cost in installing and the design build phase is many times more than you will ever recover from the heat gained.
Not true. Thermal Envelope designs are not significantly more expensive than non-efficient construction and ARE significantly less expensive than Active type systems.
You still need the installed heating system for those cold cloudy weeks.
True... ish. Again, I have data from a house we built in the 80s that, while still in the construction phase was holding interior temperatures of over 55deg F with no heat whatsoever... while it was well below zero and cloudy outside. So you have to warm the house from the 50s a whole 15-20 deg. You can almost do that with the heat output of your refrigerator. ;)
However I am not against Passive solar heating just be mindfull of the real savings that you will receive.
For Passive to be cost effective, it must be an integral design element. But once it is then it works rather well. I have mounds of Wyoming test data to prove it too. ;D
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Yeah, I think you have to do more than just have a few south-facing windows to make it work. :) Lots of factors go into it - which is a problem in a way, since you can't expect a lot of construction companies to cover all the complicated details well. I suppose the remedy is either hire a company that specializes in solar, or be the general contractor yourself and ride herd on the subcontractors. Or build the whole thing yourself!
Of course house siting is very important too. Makes no sense to try to capture smallish heat flows, but site the house out exposed to winter winds. At least, I guess that's true. The house we have outside of Cody is pretty darn exposed. I may have to try adding some trees to cut the wind speed a bit...
"Annualized Geo-Solar" is also worth looking at.
Wyoming should be near ideal for solar:
1) Very little if any permitting needed, so little bureaucrat ass-kissing to get something "experimental" approved.
2) A fair amount of sun in the winter.
3) Usually not much problem with being shaded by trees!
4) Low rainfall means underground works better than in most places.
The one downside of underground designs is having to deal with radon, which is a problem all over the Mountain West.
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TV..... we pay about 130 a month to Bresnan for a package of high-speed internet, phone (unlimited long distance) and about a zillion channels of hi-def TV.
The internet goes out about 6 hours about once a month (usually when it's windy, rather than snowy), but hey....yay. I dig it.
We're in Casper. You can't get DSL everywhere in Wyoming, if you live somewhere rural you're going to have to either settle for dial up or get satellite (expensive, and about half the speed of DSL.)
Cell phone coverage is spotty....people who travel a lot for business in this state often have two cell phones....different companies cover different areas.
MWD
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We had AT&T as our cell provider, but they have close to 0% coverage in Wyoming. We haven't bothered to get new phones--kind of liberating! We also don't watch TV. I would say our internet here is slower and more expensive and, as Michael points out, often goes out when it's really windy (makes watching the news online an all-day project). BUT utility costs are quite low compared to out East, which makes up for whatever is lacking with the internet.
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We have a 4,000sf, three level, log home. It's protected on two sides by hills and has a southern exposure.
The primary heat source is a natural-gas fired boiler with baseboard heating units. We have a (catalytic) equipped wood stove on the lowest level. On a typical winter day, (sunny) the boiler kicks on in the morning to heat things up but after that, the sun provides more than enough heat throughout the day. If it's cloudy or really cold... we fire-up the wood stove. We burn local firewoods during the days, but when we hit the sack, I stoke it up with seasoned oak. (I bought 4 tons of the oak in Wisconsin last year when I came thru there on one of my business trips).
Our pantry is located in a room-within-a-room in an outbuilding. It's insulated to R-30 and has electrical baseboard heating which we set to 45 degrees all winter. There's also a propane 93% efficiency furnace, and a wood-burning stove out there to provide some backup should the utilities fail in the winter. (It's been ten years since we had a power outage that lasted more than 10 minutes).
We also run two electric water tank heaters for the livestock. They turn on at 32 degrees. One is 500 watt. The other 1,100.
Let me say that we're not very careful about conserving power. We probably could cut back 10% just by flipping a few lights off.
Anyway... our total (Big Horn REA) electrical bill last month was $131.23 and our natural gas ran 65.50.
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Going back to energy rates.
Ours is roughly $0.055 per KWhr with PRECorp.
Was just reading this week that the utility in Las Vegas is contracting with a greenie solar electric place in Nye County, where I used to live, to BUY their stinkin' power at $0.135 per KWhr!!! Imagine what the retail will be! Oh, and the smart people or reps in NV made a "law" to require 20% of energy to come from these same fantastic greenie sources!
My all electric house is also cheap to heat, but it won't be if the Obamites get their Tax and Trade bill and other anti-fossil agenda items. Already they are trying to classify "coal ash" (the left over stuff) as "toxic waste".
Mac
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Ive burnt coal in my pellet stove and havent seen any ash....... :D
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Ive burnt coal in my pellet stove and havent seen any ash....... :D
Yeah, but you get it for Free from Santa every year... bet you're ready for a re-stock too... >:D ;)
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Of course coal ash is toxic... so just don't eat it!! Sheech. And don't put it into your garden either.
I hear that it can be used to make all kinds of things, including pavement. It replaces other materials that would have to be mined and can better be used in other things. And then there'd be no need to collect billions of gallons of it to get spilled into the environment as happened a while back in the east. I suspect it got collected because the "rules" made it difficult or impossible to ship it to where it could be used.
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Yeah, like I believe anything that the EPA says. They were the ones that told thousands of rescuers (including me) at Ground Zero that the air was fine. We are all paying for it now. And yes, let's not forget that the CO2 we breath out is also toxic to the environment.
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Of course coal ash is toxic... so just don't eat it!! Sheech. And don't put it into your garden either.
I hear that it can be used to make all kinds of things, including pavement. It replaces other materials that would have to be mined and can better be used in other things. And then there'd be no need to collect billions of gallons of it to get spilled into the environment as happened a while back in the east. I suspect it got collected because the "rules" made it difficult or impossible to ship it to where it could be used.
As long as it is not outgassing anything, Fly Ash (coal ash) is and has been used quite successfully as an additive to Gypsum in wall board.
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And yes, let's not forget that the CO2 we breath out is also toxic to the environment.
Are you serious? CO2 is NOT "toxic" at all. It is plant food.
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There is a coal-fired generation plant not far from here. People out here in the country like to use the fly ash for road base. Works especially well if you coat it with "toxic" (LOL) waste oil after it packs down. If you "spill" either of those on the ground it's considered a hazard, doing it on purpose is just fine. What's up with that??
~TG
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And yes, let's not forget that the CO2 we breath out is also toxic to the environment.
Are you serious? CO2 is NOT "toxic" at all. It is plant food.
He was being sarcastic. Like the greenies say all the time, C02 is causing global warming. Sarcasm is hard to portray via text. We need a sarcasm font and more usage of :P and 8)
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Thansk Stratispho. Text does not allow sarcasm to come across well. ;)
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He was being sarcastic. Like the greenies say all the time, C02 is causing global warming. Sarcasm is hard to portray via text. We need a sarcasm font and more usage of :P and 8)
Agreed... but there are a lot of people who do believe that stuff. I was just reading one guy pontificating on the idea that all the record cold and snow in the UK and China and everywhere else was because of global warming. HUH??? Yeah, right. :)
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I sure hope all this global warming goes away before everyone freezes to death.
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We need to seriously get underground, or head for the stars...
The Coming of a New Ice Age http://www.winningreen.com/site/epage/59549_621.htm
Entering a new ice age, however, would be catastrophic for the continuation of modern civilization.
One has only to look at maps showing the extent of the great ice sheets during the last Ice Age to understand what a return to ice age conditions would mean. Much of Europe and North-America were covered by thick ice, thousands of feet thick in many areas and the world as a whole was much colder.
The last “little” Ice Age started as early as the 14th century when the Baltic Sea froze over followed by unseasonable cold, storms, and a rise in the level of the Caspian Sea. That was followed by the extinction of the Norse settlements in Greenland and the loss of grain cultivation in Iceland. Harvests were even severely reduced in Scandinavia And this was a mere foreshadowing of the miseries to come.
By the mid-17th century, glaciers in the Swiss Alps advanced, wiping out farms and entire villages. In England, the River Thames froze during the winter, and in 1780, New York Harbor froze. Had this continued, history would have been very different. Luckily, the decrease in solar activity that caused the Little Ice Age ended and the result was the continued flowering of modern civilization.
There were very few Ice Ages until about 2.75 million years ago when Earth’s climate entered an unusual period of instability. Starting about a million years ago cycles of ice ages lasting about 100,000 years, separated by relatively short interglacial perioods, like the one we are now living in became the rule. Before the onset of the Ice Ages, and for most of the Earth’s history, it was far warmer than it is today.
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As Niven & Pournell so enjoyably pointed out in their book "Fallen Angels", "Global Warming" from pollution is likely the only reason we haven't frozen to death already.
Great read, and you can download the E-Book free from baen.com's "Free Library"
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"Global Warming" from pollution is likely the only reason we haven't frozen to death already.
Who's "facts" did they use to come to that conclusion? Did they factor in the well documented solar activity that the earth has been hit with?
I always laugh when people start pointing to pollution as the cause of global warming seeing as one volcano, in a matter of days, will pump out more pollution then the whole human civilization does in years.
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"Global Warming" from pollution is likely the only reason we haven't frozen to death already.
Who's "facts" did they use to come to that conclusion? Did they factor in the well documented solar activity that the earth has been hit with?
I always laugh when people start pointing to pollution as the cause of global warming seeing as one volcano, in a matter of days, will pump out more pollution then the whole human civilization does in years.
Read the story. It's a good one. 100% anti Goob - especially anti Envirowacko Goob.
Point is, they are saying the effect (like using smudge pots on an orange grove) is a temporary net positive...
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Read more... @#$% My reading list is pages long and I can only read a book every week or every other depending on length. It's much easier to argue on the internet with baseless opinions! ;D
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Not sure if it's just my computer but I tried with Internet Explorer and Firefox and the http://www.baen.com/library/ (http://www.baen.com/library/) site won't open the Fallen Angel page. Keeps popping up an error code of some sort.
Server Error in '/' Application.
Runtime Error
Description: An application error occurred on the server. The current custom error settings for this application prevent the details of the application error from being viewed remotely (for security reasons). It could, however, be viewed by browsers running on the local server machine.
Details: To enable the details of this specific error message to be viewable on remote machines, please create a <customErrors> tag within a "web.config" configuration file located in the root directory of the current web application. This <customErrors> tag should then have its "mode" attribute set to "Off".
<!-- Web.Config Configuration File -->
<configuration>
<system.web>
<customErrors mode="Off"/>
</system.web>
</configuration>
Notes: The current error page you are seeing can be replaced by a custom error page by modifying the "defaultRedirect" attribute of the application's <customErrors> configuration tag to point to a custom error page URL.
<!-- Web.Config Configuration File -->
<configuration>
<system.web>
<customErrors mode="RemoteOnly" defaultRedirect="mycustompage.htm"/>
</system.web>
</configuration>
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Remember Obama's famous statement:
"Under MY plan, electricity rates will NECESSARILY SKYROCKET."
I think he's pretty clear on that one . . . .
Mac
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As Niven & Pournell so enjoyably pointed out in their book "Fallen Angels", "Global Warming" from pollution is likely the only reason we haven't frozen to death already.
Great read, and you can download the E-Book free from baen.com's "Free Library"
I know both Larry and Jerry. Been years since Ive seen them but Jerry is a very left leaning guy. Good writer but verry liberal and at least when I knew him he was very much the "Left Leaning Enviromentalist" All for more govermental control.
Just re read Lucifiers Hammer and you will see what I mean.
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As Niven & Pournell so enjoyably pointed out in their book "Fallen Angels", "Global Warming" from pollution is likely the only reason we haven't frozen to death already.
Great read, and you can download the E-Book free from baen.com's "Free Library"
I know both Larry and Jerry. Been years since Ive seen them but Jerry is a very left leaning guy. Good writer but verry liberal and at least when I knew him he was very much the "Left Leaning Enviromentalist" All for more govermental control.
Just re read Lucifiers Hammer and you will see what I mean.
Well, "Fallen Angles" represents AlGore's Wet Dream of EnviroFacist control - to the extent of outlawing Science Fiction because it's too Technological". (Fairies & Fantasy books are OK...)
So I dunno what JP might have been thinking when he wrote it, but it sure isn't a pro-Goob/Progressive book...
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Back to the point. It has been stated that electricity rates are around 0.055 USD at this time, per killowatt hour. Now, my more important question is, where in Wyoming is this, is it uniform across the entire area? It it a particular company? Is this the final bill, or do they also slap another 30 or 40 bucks worth of "logistics" costs and such, to pad the cost up to about 1.25 USD /kwh ? Out here its .43/kwh but after padding, it becomes 80 cents more per kwh. Hence my question.
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Energy rates are still regulated by the state in Wyoming, so it's uniform across the board. I'm pretty sure the whole state is serviced by Rocky Mountain Power... but I'm thinking there might be a few co-ops near Sheridan area? I know Montana has a bunch of co-ops. I used to work for PPL in PA and I know PPL Corp generates electricity in Montana but they sell it to co-ops for distribution. I don't have an electric bill handy, but there are a few "administrative fees" tacked on... I believe the actual cost of generation is around .022 and it comes out to around .055 with everything else added on. So, .055 would be the final cost per kWh.
To contrast that, PPL Corp charges around .06 for generation in Pennsylvania and the distribution and transmission charges add roughly another .04 per kWh. (No, I didn't get an employee discount.) Basically, it's half the cost of what most people pay out East. I was pretty happy to get my first bill from Rocky Mountain Power!
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Energy rates are still regulated by the state in Wyoming, so it's uniform across the board. I'm pretty sure the whole state is serviced by Rocky Mountain Power... but I'm thinking there might be a few co-ops near Sheridan area? I know Montana has a bunch of co-ops. I used to work for PPL in PA and I know PPL Corp generates electricity in Montana but they sell it to co-ops for distribution. I don't have an electric bill handy, but there are a few "administrative fees" tacked on... I believe the actual cost of generation is around .022 and it comes out to around .055 with everything else added on. So, .055 would be the final cost per kWh.
To contrast that, PPL Corp charges around .06 for generation in Pennsylvania and the distribution and transmission charges add roughly another .04 per kWh. (No, I didn't get an employee discount.) Basically, it's half the cost of what most people pay out East. I was pretty happy to get my first bill from Rocky Mountain Power!
Sorry to say, you are dead wrong on most counts.
The price is not uniform.
There are many utility companies in WY. I never heard of Rocky Mountain Power.
Ours is a co-op in rural Crook County.
However, you're right in that all electric companies are regulated.
Soma said:
Back to the point. It has been stated that electricity rates are around 0.055 USD at this time, per killowatt hour. Now, my more important question is, where in Wyoming is this, is it uniform across the entire area? It it a particular company? Is this the final bill, or do they also slap another 30 or 40 bucks worth of "logistics" costs and such, to pad the cost up to about 1.25 USD /kwh ? Out here its .43/kwh but after padding, it becomes 80 cents more per kwh. Hence my question.
OK. Here's my latest bill from Powder River Energy Corp (PRECorp) in the Crook County area:
KWH consumed: 1,789 (all electric house, 1700 sq ft upstairs and same in full basement, air to air heat pump, ave hi temp in period:35F, ave low temp: 12F)
KWH Energy charge: $81.77
Basic charge (for system upkeep and maintenance): $17.50
Power cost adjustment (for the variable cost of energy between PUC approvals): $22.39
Capital Credit Retirement (if they don't use all the money they give it back): -$4.29
Tax: $7.30
Total: $124.67
That makes the TOTAL cost of $0.06969 per KWH. Roughly 7 cents.
Most other communities across the nation pay THREE TIMES that amount.
In fact, some places, notably Kalifornia, use a "progressive" rate (how surprising) that goes up the more you use (a reverse volume discount).
To light my house, heat my hot water, dry my clothes, run my computer, run my well pump, in the middle of December in NE Wyoming is a real deal for this amount. Anyone got a better rate than this? I doubt it.
Mac
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It's true that Wyoming is one of the lowest (if not the lowest, actually) for utility rates in the country. PPL also charges a progressive rate in PA. I got a lot of flack from customers with large houses for that one!
I haven't looked at the service territory map since we moved here, but I was thinking that things out your way were handled by co-ops, as well--I just wasn't sure. I was thinking the majority of Wyoming was serviced by RMP (a subsidiary of PacifiCorp): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocky_Mountain_Power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocky_Mountain_Power) It turns out that only the Western portions of Wyoming have RMP and the rest have something else--I wouldn't imagine it's all co-ops, though. Those are somewhat rare in the distribution industry.
This thread has just reminded me to pay my electric bill and since I'm not shy, I'll also share:
461 kWh came to $41.65. It is roughly .04 per kWh for me, but the basic fee with Rocky Mountain Power is $20 per month, so your actual cost per kWh will vary depending on your usage, as I believe the $20 is a flat fee no matter what the usage is. My actual cost for energy was $18.94. In addition to the basic fee of $20 and my bill of 18.94, I paid 0.73 for an "efficiency" charge and 5% sales tax.
To put this current bill into perspective, my average daily usage has more than doubled since August (204 kWh). In August my total charges for usage were $8.39, plus the $20 basic fee, 0.53 for efficiency and sales tax.
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I belong to the Powder River co-op. I have a 1700 sq/ft all electric home (one wood stove). In December I used 876 kWh.
Energy charge was 44.92
Basic charge - 17. 50
Power cost adj. 10.97
Capital credit -3.17
tax 3.67
Total paid 73.99
The capital credit usually pays most of the tax.
In 2005, in So. Calif. I had a 1200 sq/ft house, forced air propane furnace, stove and water heater. Electric powered well and water cooler, no air conditioner. My average electric bill for the last 6 months was close to $200. The propane cost a yearly average of about $50. to $75. a month. I don't remember when, but at one point the propane price was only a few pennies less than unleaded gasoline price.
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I was usually between 8 to 9 cents/kwh after fees and everything with rocky mountain power.
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@jscott:
I know two FSW folks in Newcastle and they both have DIFFERENT electric companies!
One handles inside the city limits and the other handles outside.
And I think they charge very different rates as well.
Mac
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Whoah!! Again. Power bill difference alone would pay moving costs after two years. That's presuming I run everything off of the mains. Seems interesting, thanks.
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There's a 4 letter word that I can use to explain the cost of electrical energy in Wyoming.
Ready?
COAL
Yup, that evil coal. That destroyer of life. That evil substance that is now submerging entire islands in the blink of an eye! And sending those cute cuddly polar bears to the bottom of the Arctic. Yes, there's soooo much CO2 in Wyoming that you can practically taste it as it obscures the sun. No matter that it is a tasteless and colorless gas. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story, right?
But rest assured, Obama and his gang are working hard to change things. Taxes. Regulation. Credits. Penalties.
As I've quoted him before, Obama says:"Under my plan electric rates will necessarily skyrocket."
Mac
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There's a 4 letter word that I can use to explain the cost of electrical energy in Wyoming.
Ready?
COAL
Yup, that evil coal. That destroyer of life. That evil substance that is now submerging entire islands in the blink of an eye! And sending those cute cuddly polar bears to the bottom of the Arctic. Yes, there's soooo much CO2 in Wyoming that you can practically taste it as it obscures the sun. No matter that it is a tasteless and colorless gas. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story, right?
But rest assured, Obama and his gang are working hard to change things. Taxes. Regulation. Credits. Penalties.
As I've quoted him before, Obama says:"Under my plan electric rates will necessarily skyrocket."
Mac
lol! Is that why the air is so hard to breathe here? I just thought it was the altitude. :P But just think of all the "green collar" jobs that will be created when Obama shuts down all the coal-fired plants here and in surrounding states. ???
I knew of Powder River from my previous job--just wasn't sure what their territory was. PPL Montana co-owns the Colstrip (evil, coal-fired) generation plant in Montana that Powder River buys some of its energy from. To be honest, I'd never even heard of co-ops before I worked at PPL and I've never lived in a place where I bought my energy from a co-op. But they seem to be pretty popular out here, especially in Montana--I know most of the state is serviced by co-ops, whereas most states have one giant corporation that services the whole place: for example, all of Utah is serviced by Rocky Mountain Power.
Slightly back on topic, I'm wondering if the basic fee from RMP is tiered in some way, because my bill actually says "Basic charge-1." Obviously my usage is low enough that I'd be on the lowest tier if there were any. The company's website is completely useless when it comes to this type of thing and I'm simply not interested enough to call their call center and ask! I wonder if anyone else on here in RMP territory can help me out with this hypothesis...
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We had Bill Cody Ranch on RMP. They had the usual charge for electricity (a per-electron charge so to speak :) ) and a demand charge. Large users are charged according to the peak demand in any one period; in our case the 5 minutes (or so) in the month, when all the electric heaters on the ranch happened to turn on at the same time. It was about half the bill. I don't know about other tiers. Some utilities have a reverse rate structure (the more electricity you use, the more you are charged per kilowatt-hour) but I don't recall seeing anything like that.
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Years ago, some utilities had a "minimum" amount to protect them from owners of empty houses or ultra low usage. Pahrump, NV, my old home town, had a lot of snow birds that would leave all summer.
But that seems to be replaced now with a "basic charge" to defray the cost of maintaining the lines and running the system. The basic charge at PRECorp is fixed, at least for residential users. As Paul said, big users also have a demand charge to defray the costs of having a huge surplus capacity of generation that is seldom used.
(as an aside, that is one of the real problems with solar and wind energy generation. In the future they may well supply a substantial amount of energy, but when the wind stops or the sun goes away for a few days, the good old fossil fuel plants have to step up to the plate and produce as much as they would have without the alternative energy sources. Hence, lots of capacity still required but very little income to help pay for it)
The basic charge is like the $50 per year I have to pay to rent my 500 gallon propane tank from the distributor. Whether I use any propane or not (still on my original fill after more than 3 years) I have to pay for the usage of their equipment.
Mac
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One of the best bargains I ever found was the chance to purchase an older, but sound 150 gallon propane tank in 1980. The tank rent then was probably only $20 or so, but in the 25 years I used that tank, I saved far, far more than the $100. I paid for it. No idea what a tank would cost now, if you could find one used, but it still might be something to think about.
One of the greatest advantages to having my own tank was the freedom to change gas delivery companies if the service was poor or the price too out of line with other companies in the area. If you rent the tank, you have to pay quite a bit to change, but if you own it you can change easily, or use it as a bargaining chip to get better service.
Just a thought.
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Update:
We just received our electric bill for 12/10/10 - 01/09/11. Ave high temp: 29, ave low: 10.
1,937 KW-Hrs consumed.
Total cost with basic charges, power cost adj, and tax = $139.48. All electric house.
No propane charge, no sewer charge, no water charge, no firewood, no pellets.
As you can tell, I'm still quite happy with our consumption and rates here with our cooperative.
Mac