Where Can you Open Carry, And Where Can't You?

[Terence]

Then there's the notion of getting deputized by the county upon which you become magically
safe with a gun wherever you go. The deputization process must change
every molecule of your body in a magical transformation mere civilians will never experience 

Isn't it amazing that simply by being a State minion your get all the magical powers?

Magical indeed, Stratispho. One of the few ways to get more (Magical) power with less training
and ability.

Terence

[jscottdavis04]

I've never been asked to leave any store, nor have I ever seen a sign (with the exception of the PO) prohibiting carry in Wyoming; but as an employee, I would get fired for carrying either on or off the clock. I don't really mind that--I did willfully agree to work there and abide by the terms of my employment, afterall--but I found when I was researching Utah laws that your car is considered the same as your home there, so even though your car is on someone else's private property you can still carry. If I kept my gun in my car while I worked (so I can carry on my lunch break or when I run errands after work) I could be fired for carrying on Home Depot's property--same with my bank, I presume, since they own the parking lot. Utah law prohibits them (or anyone) from telling me what I can have in my vehicle. I do like that. I'll respect other people's rights, but within my own home, vehicle or any other private area I'll do as I please.

Well, I have one of those holsters that clip on with a magent (it's pretty cool), so it's not such a bother to take it off but it does get old. Part of the reason I take the holster off is because I don't like having my gun out of the holster while in public and taking it out of the holster to place it in the glove compartment or on the seat could actually frighten some people--it would probably get my attention. The way I think of it is this: if I can't conceal when in my vehicle, then I can't have it on my body while seated in the vehicle, otherwise it would be concealed if only for the briefest moment. If a LEO saw me step out of my vehicle with a holstered gun on my hip, I'd probably have a tough time explaining that I keep it plainly visible while in the vehicle but that I simply put it back in its holster prior to getting out of my car. Rather, I keep it in the glove compartment, step out of my vehicle and then put my holster on/holster the gun. I don't think it's advisable to be handling my gun like that in public, which is why I keep it in its holster in the glove compartment. Basically, by doing things that way, I rule out any possibility of anyone saying that I brandished a weapon at them, etc. because it's always in its holster--no exceptions. I've done it both ways, but feel more comfortable keeping it in the holster--I presume everyone else here without a permit simply puts it sans-holster in the glove compartment?

In Utah, I didn't have to worry about any of that, which I like VERY much. I don't really want a CC permit, because I don't want to ask permission for anything, but the whole car thing would make having the permit worth it. In Pennsylvania, on the other hand, you need a permit to have a gun in your vehicle period and there are plenty of signs prohibiting carry, so I never bothered to even purchase a handgun there. Everyone I know in PA who owns a handgun keeps it at home at all times.

Thanks for the link, Terence, I'll have to check that out.

I get what you're saying about laws restricting freedoms, Mac, but I don't think all LEOs see it that way--I don't want to be hassled, even if they have no grounds for it. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't be surprised if most LEOs interpreted the law's silence quite differently than us: they tend to think that if the law doesn't specifically state you can, then you can't--in the name of fighting crime and national security, of course. I have to trust the integrity and general knowledge of all the LEOs around here basically everytime I carry--and I don't trust many people. In general, I am with you philosophically, but in this case (until we live in a more perfect world... Vermont/Constitutional carry?) it's nice to have it in black and white so I can keep them out of my hair.

BUT, I don't want to sound overly gushy about Utah, as their state consitution does state: "but nothing herein shall prevent the Legislature from defining the lawful use of arms." So, while they have pretty good gun laws right now (and they might get Constitutional carry this year, as well) the state constitution basically gives the legislature the power to wipe all that away and turn the state into a gun-hating paradise if they ever got the inclination to do so.

[MANUMIT]

the state constitution basically gives the legislature the power to wipe all that away...if they ever got the inclination to do so.

This is precisely how Wyomingites lost their right to impanel a Grand Jury...

From the Wyoming Constitution....

The legislature may change, regulate or abolish the grand jury system.

So now we have this....in "legal"-ese....

7-5-101. Required court order for summoning.
A grand jury shall be summoned only when ordered by a judge of the district court.

And then they can only...

7-5-202. Charging of duties; powers.
(a) ....the district judge shall c....give them any information the court deems proper concerning any offenses known to the court and likely to come before the grand jury.
(b) The grand jury may:
(i) Inquire into any crimes committed or triable within the county and present them to the court by indictment; and
(ii) Investigate and report to the court concerning the condition of the county jail and the treatment of prisoners.

MANUMIT

[manfromnevada]

@ jscottdavis;
I think you are misinterpreting what OC is.
Walking around with a gun in holster is OC.
Sitting in a vehicle with that same holstered gun is also OC.
A gun doesn't have to be visible from ALL viewing angles, just as when walking with it on your right side and a LEO on the left. He can't claim that it is "concealed".
It only has to be visible from SOME angles.
I've confirmed that carrying in a holster is AOK in both NV and WY. I've talked to the LEOs myself.

The OC laws (or lack thereof) here in WY are the same as NV. Carrying a fully loaded, chambered, gun with magazine inserted, is allowed as OC in a holster while seated in a vehicle No problem. The same is true in NM, CO, AZ, MT, and ID (imnsho). (although I've heard that some jurisdictions in AZ have other ideas)
UT actually is the oddball in the West in that you can't have it loaded while in a vehicle. I always get aggravated when I pass thru UT.
All other states described above allow a fully loaded weapon. (according to my info)

Mac

[Stratispho]

Carrying a fully loaded, chambered, gun with magazine inserted, is allowed as OC in a holster while seated in a vehicle No problem. The same is true in NM, CO, AZ, MT, and ID (imnsho). (although I've heard that some jurisdictions in AZ have other ideas)

Arizona state law (what they are calling Constitutional carry says that open and concealed carry without a permit are ok anywhere in the state and no city or municipality can write laws that conflict with the state law. This went into effect July 29, 2010. The only places that are off limits are federal buildings and places that post with the official sign that has to be printed in color, on 8 1/2x 11" paper as shown at this link http://www.azliquor.gov/assets/documents/firearms/firearms_eng.pdf)

UT actually is the oddball in the West in that you can't have it loaded while in a vehicle. I always get aggravated when I pass thru UT.
All other states described above allow a fully loaded weapon. (according to my info)

According to http://handgunlaw.us/states/utah.pdf which links to the Utah Statutes
76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
(1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
(a) in or on a vehicle unless:
(i) the vehicle is in the person's lawful possession; or
(ii) the person is carrying the loaded firearm in a vehicle with the consent of the
person lawfully in possession of the vehicle;
(b) on a public street; or
(c) in a posted prohibited area.
(2) Subsection (1)(a) does not apply to a minor under 18 years of age, since a minor under 18 years of age
may not carry a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle.
(3) Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or
muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.
(4) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.

Nothing in UT's laws say anything about not having it loaded in the vehicle that I can find. Can you find something that states otherwise? Also, UT honors most states concealed carry permits.

[jscottdavis04]

That part of the UT law is a bit confusing, Stratispho:

"Loaded" there means with the mag in. In Utah, you can't have a round in the chamber when OCing.

@ Mac: Maybe I'm mistaken about OCing in a vehicle, then. As I understand it, you have to have your gun "plainly visible," so it must be placed somewhere like the seat next to you or in the glove compartment. From that, if you keep your gun on your hip while driving or seated in your vehicle, then your gun would not be plainly visible and, thus, concealed. Am I correct there or do I not need to go through the trouble?

My point about the Utah law is that I can keep my gun holstered on my hip rather than having to
a) take it out of the holster and place it on the seat/in the glove compartment
b) take off my holster and put the gun with holster on the seat/in the glove compartment

I'm pretty sure I'm right on that one: i.e. that "plainly visible" means it must not be on my hip, whereas in Utah you can "conceal" (not take it off) while in your vehicle. If I'm not correct and I can just leave it on without being in violation of the law, then that would be good news.

So, my thing about taking off the holster is that I don't feel comfortable removing my gun from its holster in order to place it on the seat next to me or in the glove compartment. I'd rather leave it in its holster at all times, which means I need to take off the holster each time I get in my vehicle. Are you saying that I can keep my gun in its usual place on my hip and still comply with the "plainly visible" requirement for OCing in a vehicle? I have heard otherwise from a number of people, so I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding me. Sorry if I may have been confusing. 

[Stratispho]

That part of the UT law is a bit confusing, Stratispho:

"Loaded" there means with the mag in. In Utah, you can't have a round in the chamber when OCing.

No, I got that. What I'm saying is that the law says you may not carry a loaded weapon in the vehicle unless you own the vehicle, or you have permission from the owner. The law never say you have to unload your weapon so the information that Mac was told is either out of date or he was told incorrectly. So he doesn't have to unload his gun to go through UT.

UT actually is the oddball in the West in that you can't have it loaded while in a vehicle. I always get aggravated when I pass thru UT.

[Paul Bonneau]

I think the fact that Wyo law is basically silent about OC is both a blessing and a curse. Having recently researched the Utah laws prior to our recent trip there, I like the fact that the laws there state specifically what you can do, because it makes things less confusing (I suspect most LEOs here wouldn't interpret the law's silence in exactly the way I do).

Montana is like this, saying what you can do. I actually prefer the Wyoming way. LEOs can be educated. 

I wouldn't be surprised if most LEOs interpreted the law's silence quite differently than us: they tend to think that if the law doesn't specifically state you can, then you can't

Well, f*ck that!  It's possible to get too wrapped up in legal technicalities. Keep in mind, all these laws are completely illegal and immoral! Even moreso, are bogus interpretations of these laws. What matters is not so much what the laws say or how people interpret it, but how likely are you to be caught, and what happens if you are. In Wyoming at least, you are unlikely to be caught, and can avoid being caught by exposing the gun. Most cops wouldn't make a fuss about it. And the worst thing you get is a misdemeanor.

It's easier for me because I'm an old fart and don't give a shit any more, but I do advise trying to think like a free person no matter what your age.

Here is the section of (the unconstitutional) Wyoming 6-8-104 people were asking about (for CC):

(t)  No permit issued pursuant to this section or any permit issued from any other state shall authorize any person to carry a concealed firearm into:
   
     (i)  Any facility used primarily for law enforcement operations or administration without the written consent of the chief administrator;
   
     (ii)  Any detention facility, prison or jail;
   
     (iii)  Any courtroom, except that nothing in this section shall preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in the courtroom;

     (iv)  Any meeting of a governmental entity;

     (v)  Any meeting of the legislature or a committee thereof;

     (vi)  Any school, college or professional athletic event not related to firearms;
   
     (vii)  Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic liquor and malt beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to that purpose;

     (viii)  Any place where persons are assembled for public worship, without the written consent of the chief administrator of that place;

     (ix)  Any elementary or secondary school facility;
   
     (x)  Any college or university facility without the written consent of the security service of the college or university; or
   
     (xi)  Any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law or regulation or state law.

Wyoming CC law is too restrictive in my opinion. Even Oregon's is better. The thing to do in Wyoming is "discrete OC", where you use something like a blued gun in a dark IWB holster with dark clothing, with the gun barely exposed - few people will notice it. That way, there are no state restrictions on where you can carry (still have the federal ones though).

If you want a CC permit, some like to get e.g. a Utah permit which is recognized in Wyoming (and a lot of other places) but which won't show up on the computer if you are pulled over by a Wyoming cop. Could be this is old advice though, depending on how interlinked the police databases are.

Carrying a weapon in the PO is ILLEGAL whether open or concealed.

Actually, I've read that it's not quite that clear cut. However for all practical purposes one might as well treat it as illegal.

[jscottdavis04]

That's sound advice, as usual, Paul. If I didn't have to go into town just about everyday for work, school, etc. I wouldn't worry about all this so much. Right now, I simply can't afford the fine!

In order to not let my one question get lost in the few posts that have come since: Am I misunderstanding Mac or do I have to have my gun somewhere plainly visible like the seat or glove compartment in order to OC legally? Can I just wear it in my car and not have to worry about concealing without a permit? I think I've heard from several places, including in this forum, that it has to be visible.

[FDNYLiberty]

It's easier for me because I'm an old fart and don't give a shit any more, but I do advise trying to think like a free person no matter what your age.

[Crappiewy]

Yes, Wyomings Concealed Carry lLaw is Unconstitutional. Many states have provisions in their constitutions allowing regulation of Concealed carrry.However does not. The constitution says this:


97-1-024.  Right to bear arms.

The right of citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the state shall not be denied.

There is no room in that for a concealed carry law of any kind.


The Wyoming constitution also says this. The very first paragraph.


97-1-001.  Power inherent in the people.

 

All power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority, and instituted for their peace, safety and happiness; for the advancement of these ends they have at all times an inalienable and indefeasible right to alter, reform or abolish the government in such manner as they may think proper.


Concealed carry also violates this.

[manfromnevada]

@jscottdavis,
I ain't no lawyer! Nor legal scholar. 
But I never heard of any state that requires you to take you gun out of your holster and lay it on the front seat! Or tape it to the dashboard with a large arrow pointing to it saying "GUN"!

If that were the case wouldn't it be illegal to OC at a Wendy's restaurant if you were seated with your gun holstered facing away from the aisle and an LEO claimed it was "concealed"? See my point? Would you have to tape it to your forehead for all to see in all directions? I don't think so.

I actually asked the county deputies in NV about it. What they told me is what I told here. Also, once, at an illegal sobriety checkpoint, at night, they stopped me and asked me to step out and take a breathalyzer test. I informed the deputy that I had my sidearm with me, he asked me where, I told him it was holstered on my right side, and he basically said, "Sheesssh! No big deal. Just get out, stand right here out of the traffic (with your sidearm), and blow into this device."

And I asked a Crook County deputy once about OC after I returned to the gas pump in Moorcroft where he was pumping gas nearby. He had said, "Is that a Glock you've got there?" That started up a conversation about OC. He said they encourage folks to carry as long as they do so safely and responsibly. Never a mention of "make sure you have it unholstered and laying on the seat."

That doesn't mean of course that somewhere, some place, there isn't a rogue cop that will suddenly hold you at gunpoint because he got freaked out by your gun. Ya just never know!


BTW, Boston's Gun Bible (revised), page 34/4 says that handguns must be unloaded, chamber and mag empty, in a vehicle. Don't know if that is still accurate.

Mac

[Boston]

Nobody here is an attorney, except for the attorneys.
No legal advice or information is being dispensed in this thread.
Just layman's opinion.

Boston

[FDNYLiberty]

I agree BOSTON. Like Glenn Beck says, "Do your own homework." 

[jscottdavis04]

Nobody here is an attorney, except for the attorneys.
No legal advice or information is being dispensed in this thread.
Just layman's opinion.

Boston

That's always a given here, I suppose, but I guess that does need to be pointed out from time to time.

@ Mac: thanks for sharing your experiences. I have heard differently from others, but your point about Wendy's makes sense: But I never said the laws were supposed to make sense!    I'll just have to re-do my homework in light of what you're saying and maybe give the Sheriff's office a call for clarification... do you think calling would be a good idea?

Well, thanks for your thoughts, all.